[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
If you dig the twisted, admire the outlandish, and are enamored by the unusual, you're in the right place.
True crime, the supernatural, the unexplained. Now you're speaking our language. If you agree, join us as we dive into the darker side. You know, because it's more fun over here.
Welcome to Total Conundrum Warning Some listeners may find the following content disturbing.
Listener discretion is advised.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: There is no death. The stars go down to rise upon another shore, and bright in heaven's jeweled crown they shine forevermore.
Those words were written by John Lucky McCreary in 1863, and in a small Illinois town just a few years later, a young girl would become living proof of what some believed those words truly meant.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: That story begins in Watseka, Illinois, a small town in Iroquois just west of the Indiana border. Founded in the early 1860s, it was the kind of place where cornfield stretched to the horizon and everyone knew your name and your business.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: By the 1870s, Watsika had settled into its rhythm, a place where court cases were discussed over church pews and every birthday, death and scandal made its rounds faster than the weekly paper could print it.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: But underneath all that purry simplicity, something strange was already simmering. This is an era obsessed with the afterlife, seances, spirit photography, and the rise of American spiritualism, and soon Watseka would become its unlikely epicenter.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Mary Lorancy Venom was born on April 16, 1864, in Milford, Illinois, to parents Thomas and Lorinda Venom. She was the youngest of several children, part of a large working class farming family.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: The Venoms were simple, respectable folk, no real scandal, no drama. When Lorenzi was around seven, they moved about a mile outside of town, near the outskirts of Watsega, Illinois, where the horizon stretches out in golden rows of corn and sky.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Lurancy, or Ranci, as she was affectionately called, was described as a quiet, gentle child. She had big, expressive eyes and a calm demeanor.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: There were no signs of trouble. Early on she was healthy, except for a bout of the measles in 1873. She was sweet, smart, and mild mannered. By all accounts.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: She spent her days helping her mother, playing with her siblings, and walking the long, dusty road into town.
But by the time she turned 13, those quiet moments of stillness began to twist into something much stranger.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: In the summer of 1877, that changed almost overnight. Loranci began to drift into long, unexplainable spells where she would lie completely still as if she were dead.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: She told her parents that she could see and hear spirits including her brother Birdie, who had died when she was just three years old.
She said he stood at the foot of her bed and smiled.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Sometimes she would name other people too, strangers or neighbors who had passed and describe them in vivid detail.
People she wouldn't have known.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Then came the seizures, or what the doctors at the time called spells. Lranci would lose consciousness for hours and eventually for days.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: Her body would stiffen, her limbs locked into place. She didn't blink, didn't speak, didn't react. No matter how hard her parents tried to wake her, she was unreachable.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: What L. Ranci was entering was a catatonic state. A deep trance like condition where the mind withdraws completely from the outside world. She didn't flinch when spoken to, didn't move when touched. Some even said that she could be poked or pinched without any sign of pain.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: And her breathing, so shallow, so slow, it was almost imperceivable. In an era with no machines, no heart monitors, people didn't know what they were looking at.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: In the 1800s, catatonic states weren't understood. To grieving families and frightened doctors, these episodes looked like death.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: And many people were buried alive. There were dozens of documented cases.
Coffins open to reveal claw marks inside, fingernails torn from panic. Victims who had been declared dead but had simply been catatonic.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Imagine being Lorenzi's parents, watching your daughter lie there for days, eyes shut, body rigid, and no way of knowing whether she was going to wake up or stay like that forever.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Whatever was happening to her, it wasn't normal. And it was only getting worse.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: As if the trances and catatonic spells weren't terrifying enough, Lurancy's body began to betray her in more violent, heartbreaking ways.
[00:05:41] Speaker A: She started experiencing waves of pain so intense that her body would arch backwards so far that her head and feet would actually touch. Her small frame twisted in ways no one believed possible.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: This went on for months. Again and again the seizures came, more intense, more violent, until she seemed caught in a cycle of torment that no one could break.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Her family watched in helpless horror, fearing every spell might be her last.
Neighbors whispered, doctors were baffled. And there were days when even her parents feared she might die right in front of them.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: And when she did finally wake, she remembered none of it. No pain, no thrashing, nothing.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: She would look up, confused, calm, almost as if she returned from a nap while everyone around her lived through a nightmare.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: To those who witnessed it, the only explanation was madness. In the 1870s, no one had language for epilepsy or Disassociation, or catatonia. There was only one word for a girl who lost control of her mind and body. Like this.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Insane.
Insane in the membrane, insane in the brain.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Whispers began that she should be committed to an asylum. That she was dangerous. Or worse, possessed. But her family didn't want to give up. And just as the situation felt most hopeless, someone unexpected stepped forward.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: A man who believed lurancy wasn't mad. She was gifted. And what was happening to her wasn't a disease. It was a message from beyond.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: By January of 1878, Lorenzi's condition had worsened to the point that her parents were out of options.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: On the advice of their local minister, with the pressure of nearly everyone in town, they made the heartbreaking decision to have her committed to the state mental institution in Peoria.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: To the people of Watsika, the answer was simple. The girl was insane. Something was wrong with her mind. And if the family wouldn't act, the community would.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: But her parents still held out hope. They didn't want to abandon their daughter to a life behind asylum walls. They didn't believe she was dangerous. They just didn't understand what was happening to her.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: And that's when Asa Roth entered the picture.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: A longtime Wasika resident, Asa knew tragedy all too well. His own daughter, Mary Roth, had died more than a decade earlier after suffering violent episodes eerily similar to what Lynci was now experiencing.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: Mary had been institutionalized in Jacksonville, Illinois, and. And she had died there under mysterious circumstances.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: But Asa hadn't walked away from his daughter's death with only grief. He walked away a believer.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: After Mary's death, he and his wife Dorothy became devoted spiritualists, firm believers in communication with the dead. And Asa? He believed that Mary hadn't died alone.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: He believed Mary had been possessed. That evil spirits had overtaken her mind and body.
And when heard about what was happening to Lorenzi, he saw the signs again.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: The seizures, the trances, the pain, the visions. He recognized all of it.
[00:09:13] Speaker A: And he believed lurancy wasn't mentally ill. She was a vessel. Just like his daughter had been.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: And so Asa Raph made a bold request to Lorenci's desperate parents. Don't send her to the asylum. Not yet.
Let me introduce you to someone. Someone who understands what this really is.
A man of science and of spirit. Dr. E. Winchester Stevens.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Not related to the Winchester Mystery House?
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Not that we know of.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: We can't tell you for sure to.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Understand why Acerof believed in Lorenci venom's suffering and why he refused to accept the asylum as the only path forward.
We have to go back 13 years before Lorenzi's first trance to his own daughter, Mary Roth.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Asa B. Roth and his wife Dorothy, were early settlers in Waseca. Asa was a respected businessman and landowner, quite thoughtful and deeply devoted to his family.
Dorothy, his wife, was known for her kind nature and devout spiritual beliefs.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: They had several children together, and when their daughter Mary was born in 1846, the family was thriving.
She was a sweet child, bright, curious, and unusually perceptive.
Some described her as emotionally intense, others as having a storm behind her eyes.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: From a young age, Mary seemed to feel things more deeply than other children. She was easily overwhelmed, prone to crying fits or shutting down completely if something frightened her. But nothing seemed abnormal. Not at first.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Mary Roth's descent into darkness didn't begin in her teens. It started when she was just six months old.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: She began to experience fits, what we'd likely recognize as seizures. Convulsions would rack her tiny body for minutes at a time.
And as she grew older, the episodes became more frequent, more violent.
[00:11:16] Speaker B: Doctors had no answers. And by the time she reached her early teens, the seizures had evolved into something far more disturbing.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: Mary began speaking in languages she had never been taught. Foreign tongues, phrases no one around her recognized. It wasn't just gibberish. It was structured, fluent, like someone or something else was speaking through her.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: And her behavior became erratic. She would scream, strike out violently, or collapse into silence. One moment she was sobbing, the next she was laughing uncontrollably, eyes fixed on something no one else could see.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: She was described as a raving maniac of the most violent kind. And yet, mixed with all that chaos were moments of something almost supernatural.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Mary began to show signs of clairvoyance, a term used in spiritualism to describe someone with the ability to perceive things beyond the normal senses, seeing what others could, not knowing what they shouldn't possibly know.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: She could read letters through sealed envelopes or describe objects hidden from view. Even more chilling, she could read books without opening them.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: Witnesses said that even when her eyes were bandaged or completely covered, she could describe the text on a page or the contents of a letter held in front of her.
It wasn't just guessing. She was precise, sometimes painfully so.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: Some in town thought she was gifted. Others thought she was cursed. But to Asa and Dorothy Roth, this wasn't a show. It was their daughter slipping away.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: But even as Mary was showing signs of supernatural awareness, she was also falling deeper into obsession, pain, and blood.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: It's important to remember this was the mid-1800s. Modern medicine was still in its infancy back then. Bloodletting was a common treatment for both physical and mental illnesses.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Doctors believed that the body had to stay in balance and. And if someone was sick, they likely had too much blood.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: Too much blood.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: What is that?
[00:13:29] Speaker B: I'm not sure, but.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: You bloody bastard. You have too much blood in you.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: I guess it was a thing back then.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Guess so.
All righty then.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: So physicians would apply leeches to the face, temples or limbs to literally drain illness out of the body.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Nice.
Even respected doctors practiced it. And for someone showing signs of mental distress, bleeding was seen as a way to calm the mind, to bring order back from chaos.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: Mary began performing bloodletting on herself, saying the pain in her head needed to be drawn out. She'd apply leeches to her own body, specifically her temples, and told her parents she liked the way it felt.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: She treated the leeches like pets. She gave them names. She'd sit for hours watching them work, as if draining her blood would drain away whatever tortured her mind. But that wasn't enough.
There were days when Mary took it further.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: One afternoon, she ran out into the backyard with a kitchen knife and began slicing open her forearm.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: When her family found her, she was covered in blood. Not crying, not screaming, just quiet. And then she collapsed into the worst seizure she had ever experienced.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: It lasted days.
Her body convulsing violently, uncontrollable.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: It took five grown men to hold her down and keep her from further injuring herself. Five men. And they still struggled. Mary Roth weighed barely 100 pounds and had lost nearly all her blood.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: The Roths tried everything.
Doctors, home remedies, spiritual advice, prayer.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: For nearly two decades, they lived in a house that was slowly unraveling, where no diagnosis fit and no treatment worked.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Eventually, even they had to admit they could no longer keep her safe or themselves.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: So they made the most painful decision of their lives. They committed their daughter to an insane asylum.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Before we tell you what became a Mary Roth inside the asylum, we need to talk about what that really meant.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Because mental health care as we know it today didn't exist. There was no therapy, no medication, no understanding of the brain. There was only fear and the desire to separate the so called insane from the rest of society.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: In the 17th and 18th centuries, those who behaved strangely were thought to be possessed by evil spirits, or worse, under the control of the devil himself.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: This led to rituals, exorcisms and spiritual punishments, not healing. And even as science crept in during the 1800s, the actual treatments were anything but humane.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: One of the earliest and most Disturbing devices was the tranquilizer Chair, created by Dr. Benjamin Rush.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: That sounds pleasant.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: I don't think so.
A signer of the Declaration of Independence and often called the father of American.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: Psychiatry, Rush believed that if his patient's body was completely immobilized, their muscles would relax and their mind would follow.
So he designed a high backed wooden chair with restraints on the arms and legs and head, holding the patient in place for hours, days, even months.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: A hole was cut into the seat with a bucket underneath to collect waste. Because patients weren't allowed to leave, they weren't even permitted to shift their bodies. I'm saying I would not relax if this was the case.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: No.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Not even.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: Not even remotely.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: No. It's crazy.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: They were expected to sit still until their madness stopped, which could take up to six months at a time.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Even older than the chair is a procedure called trepanation, a practice dating back to prehistoric times. Doctors would drill holes into the skull, believing this would release the demons, causing.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: Mental illness they didn't understand epilepsy, schizophrenia or trauma. They thought if something inside the head was misbehaving, they just cut it out. They cut a hole and let it right out the door.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Brilliant.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. It worked every time.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: It was crude brain surgery without anesthesia. Some patients survived, some didn't.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: In the mid-1800s, a device called the Utica crib became popular in asylums across America.
Inspired by a French design, it looked like a child's crib, but it was made of solid wood or metal slats, and it had a locking lid.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Patients would be placed inside, lying flat on their backs, and the lid would be closed and latched, essentially caging them in a horizontal position.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: They were restrained, isolated, left alone for hours, sometimes days. The idea was that with enough stillness, the madness would settle.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Then there were the water cures. Not the relaxing spa kind.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: Patients were placed into scalding hot baths to loosen their muscles, then immediately dunked into ice cold water to shock the system.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: This was done again and again, sometimes while the patient screamed, convulsed or begged to stop. To the doctors, this was therapy. To the patients, it was torture.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Of course, there were leeches applied to the temples, spine and behind the ears to drain excess blood. Straight jackets to subdue the violent cages, to isolate the unpredictable.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: This was the world that awaited Mary Roth. And this is what the venoms were being told would save lranci.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: It's no wonder Asa Roth did. Didn't trust the asylum. He'd already lost one daughter to that system. And now he saw Another girl being pulled towards that same fate.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: In an attempt to cure Mary's seizures and violent behavior, doctors at the asylum subjected her to the only treatments they knew.
[00:19:50] Speaker A: Mary was exposed to cold water immersion therapy, a brutal practice where patients were placed in scalding hot water, then suddenly plunged into icy cold bath. The body forced into shock again and again.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: She endured this for 18 months, a year and a half of rotating heat and ice, solitude and restraint.
Her family hoped it would calm her, cure her, even save her.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: But after a lifetime of violent fits, visions and isolation, Mary's story came to a sudden trouble. Tragic end.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: On July 5, 1865, screams ran out. Family members rushed to find Mary in the throes of another violent seizure.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: This one would be her last. She collapsed midfit and expired moments later.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: She was just 18 years old.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: It was January 31, 1878. The day everything changed. Dr. E. Winchester Stevens arrived at the Venom home for the first time. What he witnessed that afternoon would become one of the most documented spiritual possession cases in American history.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Lorenci Venom sat motionless in a chair near the wood stove where her mother had just prepared a noon meal. The room was stifling hot, and yet the girl was visibly shivering, as if chilled to the bone.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: She didn't acknowledge them when they entered. 14 year old, pale and thin, with dark hair framing her face and shadowed eyes. She simply stared into the fire, unblinking.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Her parents, Thomas and larinda, guided the two men into the room. Asa, Raff and Dr. Stevens. Asa said nothing. He simply studied the girl, heartbreak etched in his face.
Dr. Stevens crouched beside her, gently calling her name.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Lranci didn't react. No flinch, no blink. Nothing. But when Stevens moved a chair closer, her head snapped around and with an unnatural hiss, she warned him not to come any closer.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: He calmly raised his hands and backed off. Laurenda quickly apologized, clearly mortified by her daughter's behavior.
But Lurancy turned to her and snapped, calling her an old granny.
Moments later, she shouted across the room, telling them all to leave her alone. She didn't recognize a single face, not even her own family.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Stevens remained composed. He told her that he was a doctor, a spiritual doctor, and that he was there to help. And just like that, something changed.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Ls entire demeanor softened. She smiled, and in a calm, almost gleeful tone, she told him she would answer any questions that he wanted to ask.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: What stunned them all was that no one told L anything about Steven's background. He didn't mention his spiritual beliefs. And yet, somehow she knew.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: When Stevens asked Her name. She replied that she was Katrina Hogan, and a 63 year old woman from Germany who had arrived just three days prior threw the air.
She said she would stay for three weeks.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Then her energy shifted again. Her voice deepened. Her posture changed. It was no longer Katrina. She now identified herself as Willie Canning, a troubled young man who had changed his name multiple times.
He explained he had lost his life and now he was there.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: When asked where there was, he replied plainly, I'm in her. I'm here because I want to be.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: And then the roles reversed. Willie began asking the questions. He interrogated Dr. Stevens about his life, his morals, his faith, then insisted Stevens ask the same questions to Asa Roth and Thomas Benham.
She refused to speak to them directly.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: For more than an hour. The girl, or rather the spirits controlling her, bombarded them with questions. Her tone moved from smug to mocking to detached, and then just silence.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: Stevens gently tried to draw her back. He called her by each of the names she had given.
He asked to speak to Lurancy, but there was no response.
Finally, he sighed and said he would return the next day.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: But as he stood to leave, Lurancy's body jolted upright. Her arms flew into the air. Her eyes rolled back into her head. She collapsed onto the floor.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Her limbs twisted into unnatural positions. She was rigid, frozen, completely unresponsive.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Dr. Stevens knelt beside her, gently taking her hands. He spoke softly, carefully easing her out of the trance. And slowly she began to speak again.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: But this time the voice was calm, familiar. She said she had been in heaven, speaking with angels.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: In that quiet, hypnotic state, Lorancy began to speak again, this time with clarity and remorse. She explained that she allowed darker spirits like Katrina Hogan and Willie Canning to enter her, and that they had made her say and do terrible things.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: Dr. Stevens reassured her that she didn't have to be at their mercy. He told her that she could choose which spirits she allowed in, and that she had the power to demand the others to leave.
[00:25:32] Speaker B: He explained that only kind, intelligent spirits, the ones that wanted to help, should be allowed to stay. He asked her gently, wouldn't that be better?
[00:25:42] Speaker A: Lurancy considered this quietly and then nodded. She said she would try.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: For a long moment, she sat in complete silence. The only light in the room came from the flickering stove and a single kerosene lamp. Shadows swayed across the walls, like they were waiting for what came next.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: And then, at a soft voice, she said she had been asking around, searching the spirit world for someone who could keep the cruel ones away, someone who would protect her and her Family, she.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: Said there were many willing spirits and began to list names of people who had long since died, names that meant nothing to her but were instantly recognized by the older folks in the room.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: And then she went still again. But after a pause in the hush that followed, she took a breath and whispered the name of the spirit who had stepped forward to help her.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: She said, I found someone. A spirit who wants to come with me. One who believes she can help me save my life.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: When Dr. Stevens gently asked for the spirit's name, Loranci's answer hung in the air like a candlelit secret.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: Her name is Mary Roth. The next morning, Dr. Stevens returned to the Venom home. The bitter chill of February clung to the windows, but inside the air was warm and still.
Too still.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: Azeroth came with him again, this time with intention.
The man who had once watched his daughter fade into a violent madness now returned with a quiet hope.
[00:27:17] Speaker B: Stevens expected another chaotic trance, another bitter voice. Katrina Hogan or Willie Canning. But what greeted him instead was peace.
[00:27:27] Speaker A: Lurancy sat upright in her chair.
Her posture was different, her eyes clear, her expression calm, familiar even.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: She smiled gently as they entered, a soft, knowing smile. She made direct eye contact with Asa.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: Dr. Stevens greeted the girl gently, asking who he was speaking with this time and what came next shook everyone in the room.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: Without hesitation, she looked at him with calm, clear eyes, and in a soft, almost tender voice, she answered, my name is Mary Roff.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: Asa staggered slightly. It wasn't just the name. It was the voice, the eyes, the grace. Everything about her reminded him of Mary.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: And not just to Asa. Larinda gasped and stepped backwards. Even Thomas Venom, skeptical and stoic, went silent.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: Dr. Stevens asked another question, then another, and each time the girl answered not as Lurancy, not even as an imposter, but with a clear, confident memory of Mary Roth.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: In his notes that night, Stevens wrote that Mary remembered family stories, childhood events, and even hidden belongings that only Mary or someone close to her could have known.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: Asa tested her. He he asked her what happened to her doll, Sarah, the one he tucked away after her death.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: She turned to Asa and described something no outsider could have known. She said, she's in the box at the top of the wardrobe where you placed her. The dress with the green sash is still wrapped around her legs so it wouldn't wrinkle.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: Asa broke down. Tears filled his eyes. For him, there was no doubt.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: Though she occupied Lyncy Venom's body, the girl who now called herself Mary showed no recognition of the Venom family. She didn't know Their names, their voices were unfamiliar, their touch foreign.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: She referred to them as that man and that woman. To Mary, the Roths were her true family. The Venoms were strangers who just happened to have her body.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: Within days, she began to plead, asking to return to her real home. But the house on South 3rd Street. The Roth house.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Dr. Stevens and Asa approached the Venoms with a proposition that must have seemed unthinkable. Let the girl move in with the Roth family.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: It was bold. It was unorthodox. But after months of fear, violence, and helplessness, this version of L. Ranci was the calmest, happiest that they had seen her in almost a year.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: And so, in an unprecedented decision, the Venoms allowed Mary to leave.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: On the day of the visit, Dorothy Roff and her daughter, Nervi. Mary.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: That's a funny name.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: It is a funny name.
She's Mary's younger sister. And they arrived at the Venom home.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: They stepped hesitantly into the parlor. Dorothy clutched her gloves tightly, bracing for something impossible. Nervy stood close to her side.
[00:30:38] Speaker B: The girl sitting on the sofa looked up. Her face lit up. She jumped to her feet and rushed forward, arms wide. She called out, ma Nervi.
[00:30:49] Speaker A: She called her sister by the nickname only Mary had ever used.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: Dorothy burst into tears. Nervy nodded in disbelief. This wasn't just a resemblance. This felt real.
Dr. Stevens later wrote that. That in all of his years of spiritualist practice, he had never witnessed anything as complete or as convincing as the reunion between Mary Roth and her family.
[00:31:15] Speaker A: He believed this wasn't merely channeling. It was, in his words, the return of a soul to finish what life had left undone.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: And so Mary Roth came home in a body that wasn't hers, to a town that couldn't look away.
Word traveled fast in Watseka. By the end of that week, the whispers had spread from the church pews to the general stores. The girl once believed to be possessed now claimed to be someone entirely different.
And not just anyone but Mary Roth.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Neighbors didn't know whether to lock their doors or leave them open, hoping to catch a glimpse of a miracle.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: The Venoms were called irresponsible by some.
Others thought the Roths had lost their minds in grief. But just as many leaned in closer, unable to look away.
Because when they spoke to the girl, it sounded like Mary. It felt like Mary.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: When Dorothy Roth led Mary, still in Luranci's body, back to what was now the family's home. They walked along familiar roads, past familiar trees under that wide prairie sky.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: But when they reached the doorstep of the Roth home. Mary hesitated. She looked around, confused, and softly said, this wasn't the right house.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Her eyes scanned the streets, searching for something familiar. Her home. The original Roth house. But Mary's memory hadn't moved on.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: She started walking down the road, insisting the real house was nearby. Dorothy gently took her hand and told her that this was their home now.
[00:32:52] Speaker A: Mary paused, then said, almost to herself, maybe it's been way longer than I thought.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: It was a quiet moment, haunting and deeply human, because Mary Roth still knew her home. But the world had changed without her. Dr. Stevens recorded that Mary made a clear promise. She had been permitted by the angels to take control of Lorenci's body for a time. To heal her, to protect her, and to send her back whole.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: While Mary lived in the world, lranci would be with the angels in a space of rest and spiritual repair. When the time was right, Mary said, she would leave Li and would return stronger than before.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: Neighbors, friends, even distant family members came to test the girl.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: They asked her about events, people from Mary's past, moments too obscure for anyone to fake.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: And she passed. Again and again.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: She recognized childhood friends, even one she hadn't seen since she was 6.
She called them by nicknames no one had used in years.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: She knew a woman's favorite candy, a cousin's old injury from a fall, the exact moment a neighbor's chimney cut fire in 1858, and who had thrown the first bucket of water.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: And it wasn't just memory. It was feeling. The way she laughed, the tone of her voice, the subtle gestures she did with her hands when she was thinking. Even the way she tilted her head when somebody was being dramatic.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: As the days passed, Asa and Dorothy Roth couldn't deny what they were seeing. And yet their hearts still hesitated. Could this really be Mary?
[00:34:37] Speaker A: To test her, they decided on something small, something meaningful.
Dorothy retrieved a box from the attic. Inside it, carefully folded, was a bonnet, one Mary had worn years ago when her hair had been cut short.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: They didn't explain what it was. Dorothy simply entered the room, holding the bonnet in her hands, watching and waiting.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: And the moment the girl saw it, her face lit up. She smiled, eyes wide with recognition, and.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Said, that's the one. The green band. I wore it when I had just cut my hair short.
[00:35:13] Speaker A: It wasn't a guess. It wasn't a lucky memory. It was a detail only Mary Roth could have remembered.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: And in that instant, the bonnet became more than a test. It became confirmation to Asa and Dorothy their daughter had truly come home.
[00:35:30] Speaker A: But even with the certainty in their hearts. There was still quiet moments of doubt, little cracks where time had moved on, even if Mary hadn't.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: There were times when Mary hesitated, when trying to recall people.
Faces had changed in 12 years. People had aged, grown, gained weight, or gone gray.
[00:35:51] Speaker A: But after a pause, she remembered. She'd recall the ways they spoke, how they held the teacup, or how they used to drag their heels when walking.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: It was like watching someone slowly awaken, not from sleep, but from death.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: And for the Roffs, for many in Waseca, this wasn't just evidence. It was comfort. And for the first time in 12 years, they had Mary back.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: In the weeks that followed, Mary lived a life that she had been robbed of, a second chance, however strange, to finish what had been left undone.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: She attended church with the Roffs, walking into the building like she'd never left. She greeted parishioners by name, remembering which pew they sat in, who sang off key and who always nodded off during the sermon.
[00:36:41] Speaker B: She strolled familiar roads. She visited the garden she once helped her mother plant. She even commented on how tall the elm trees had grown, just like she used to measure them when she was a child.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: But not all memories were light hearted. One afternoon, seated with her parents, she spoke suddenly of her pain that she used to have.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: She looked down at her arm and slowly rolled up her sleeve. Remember how I used to cut myself when the headaches got too bad? She said. She searched the ranci skin for scars, but there were none. Then, quietly, almost to herself, she added, this isn't my arm.
Mines in the ground.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: Dorothy turned away, her eyes stinging. But Asa. He just sat still, soaking in the truth. He'd never let himself speak.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: Asa Raph had never truly buried his daughter. Her body, yes, but not her memory, not her soul. Mary's return was the moment he could finally begin to heal.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: He spoke less in those days, but when he looked at her, you could see the peace beginning to settle behind his eyes.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: She would sit on the porch beside him in the evenings. Quiet.
No need for words. Just the weight of years being carried away, one sigh at a time.
[00:37:59] Speaker A: But Mary always knew her time was borrowed. She told Dr. Stevens, When Lurancy is strong enough, I'll go. This is her life. I'm just holding it steady.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: And slowly, those around her began to sense the shift.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: She grew more quiet. She spent more time staring out the window, less time laughing. She spoke less about the past and more about the present.
[00:38:23] Speaker B: She helped Dorothy fold linens. She showed Nervi how to fix a torn hem. She visited Mary's grave. She stood beside Asa, silent as he clutched her hand.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: She didn't speak that day. She didn't have to, because the message was clear. It was time.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: In May of 1878, Mary Roff, speaking through Larancy Venom, began to say her goodbyes. She told the Roth family that her time in this world was coming to an end.
[00:38:52] Speaker A: She explained gently that l spirit was ready to return, that her job was done and it was time to go.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: For Asa, Dorothy and Nervi, it was a second funeral without a coffin. A daughter that they mourned once. They now had to mourn again.
[00:39:11] Speaker A: One morning, as the lilacs began to bloom, Lurancia woke. The girl who had been overtaken by visions, seizures and unknown voices now looked out at the world with clear, grounded eyes.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: She looked up and said softly, I think I'd like to go home now.
Dorothy cried as she embraced the girl who no longer knew her. This wasn't Mary, but it was a girl reborn. And that had to be enough.
[00:39:39] Speaker A: After three months and ten days, Mary's spirit stepped aside and Larancy Venom walked back across town to her family, to her life, to her future.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: Lurancy went on to marry George Bining. They moved to Kansas, started a family.
She gave birth to more than 11 children.
[00:39:59] Speaker A: Holy.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
A long, full life grounded in peace and screaming children.
[00:40:06] Speaker A: Oh, fun, fun, fun.
But the story wasn't entirely over.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: Roughly 30 years later, during the birth of her first daughter, Mary returned.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: It was brief, quiet, but it was said that she came to help ease Lo's pain, to. To protect her one last time.
[00:40:26] Speaker B: A silent guardian in the moment life began again.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Loranci Venom Binding passed away on August 13, 1952, in Long Beach, California.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: She was 88 years old. A mother, a wife, a survivor, and for a time, a living vessel for another soul's return.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: One girl gave up her body to help a spirit find peace. And in turn, found peace herself.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: Two lives, one journey. A story that continues to echo through the halls of the Roth house and the pages of time. Over a century after the last seance faded and Mary Roth's spirit said goodbye, a new light was cast on the case through the lens of a modern day documentary.
[00:41:14] Speaker A: In 2009, filmmakers Christopher and Philip Booth released the the Possessed, a chilling and emotional deep dive into the story of the Wasika wonder.
[00:41:25] Speaker B: But what made the film stand out wasn't just the recreations or the historical facts. It was the voice of someone who knew Lyn personally. Her great niece, Joyce Westbrooks.
[00:41:36] Speaker A: Joyce, interviewed with the Booth Brothers. She is poised, honest, and still emotionally moved, and she doesn't hesitate to say it plainly. Something happened.
[00:41:47] Speaker B: She recalls her own experiences with Lurancy, a woman she describes as gentle, kind, and very spiritual. She says Lurancy always believed in the spirits, but never spoke much of what happened in Watsika.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Her family told her stories how Li had been sick as a child, that something took her over, and then somehow she got better.
[00:42:10] Speaker B: But it wasn't a tale told with drama. It. It was fact, passed down with a sense of reverence and maybe even a touch of fear.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: In the film, Joyce admits she was raised in a religious household, but that didn't shake her belief that something real and unexplainable had occurred. She believed what happened to L wasn't fabricated and that it wasn't just simply a case of hysteria or mental illness.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: To Joyce, the possession, or walk in, as some modern spiritualists call it, was a gift and a burden, one that shaped her great aunt's life and quietly echoed through her descendants.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: The Booth brothers didn't just tell a ghost story. They showed how legends live on in blood and memory and how a tale from 1878 still held emotional weight for a living relative.
In her eyes, you could see the truth hadn't been buried.
[00:43:06] Speaker B: The possessed gave the Watsika wonder a modern voice and reminded us that even after death, stories and spirits endure.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: And while the Roth stories seem to fade with time, the house itself wasn't finished speaking, not by a long shot.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: Restoring a historic home is never easy, but for John Whitman, the task of bringing the Roth house back to life became something far more personal and paranormal.
[00:43:34] Speaker A: During an interview on the Ghostly podcast, John shared a moment that changed everything.
One night, while working alone in the house, he experienced an overwhelming emotional breakdown. The weight of the renovations, the history of the house, the energy within the walls, it all became too much.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: He described feeling an intense presence, as if the house itself was communicating with him, stirring emotions he couldn't explain.
[00:44:02] Speaker A: That's just a tummy ache.
The very next day, John received an unexpected phone call from a psychic medium without prior knowledge of his experience. She conveyed a message. The house is grateful. You're doing important work, but remember, you're not alone.
[00:44:21] Speaker B: This unsolicited message resonated deeply with John, affirming his beliefs that the spirits of the Roth house were aware of his efforts and perhaps even guiding him.
[00:44:31] Speaker A: From that point on, Jon approached the restoration not just as a preservation project, but as a collaboration with the house's lingering spirits.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: His experience serves as a poignant reminder that some places are more than just structures. They're vessels of memory, emotion, and perhaps, ongoing stories.
Since its restoration, the Roth house has welcomed numerous guests, each bringing their own curiosity and at times, leaving with stories that add to the home's mystique.
[00:45:03] Speaker A: Visitors have reported a range of experiences, from the subtle to the startling. Some describe an overwhelming sense of calm in certain rooms, while others have felt a sudden chill or heard unexplained footsteps echoing through the halls.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: One guest recounted waking up in the middle of the night to find a rocking chair moving on its own despite no drafts or open windows. Another spoke of hearing soft whispers near the old seance room. Though they were alone at the time.
[00:45:32] Speaker A: Paranormal investigators have also been drawn to the Roth house. They've captured EVPs, electronic voice phenomena, and observed EMF electromagnetic field fluctuations in the area associated with the original Waseca Wonder events.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: While not every guest encounters something unexplainable, the consensus is clear. The Roth house holds a presence, a lingering energy that connects the past with the present.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, a stay at the Roth house offers more than just a night in a historic home. It's an invitation to step into a living story with one that continues to unfold with each visit.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: And who knows? Perhaps the next chapter will be yours to tell.
So what do we make of it? Was lranci Venom truly possessed by the spirit of Mary Roth? Or is this a case of suggestion, trauma, and the power of belief?
Whatever it was, it changed everyone involved.
[00:46:34] Speaker A: It gave closure to a grieving family. It. It gave healing to a girl on the edge of being lost.
And it left behind one of the most compelling and chilling stories of spiritual possession in American history.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: And whether you're a believer, a skeptic, or somewhere stuck in between the veil, the Roth House continues to whisper its secrets.
[00:46:57] Speaker A: We've walked its halls. We've heard the creeks and the silence. And we can tell you something is is still there. Whether it's Mary Loranci or the energy of hundreds of years of curiosity. This story isn't done.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: And neither are we. And if you stayed at the Roth house or had an experience of your own, we'd love to hear it. And we'll be sharing our experiences staying at the Roth house in a future episode.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: So send us a message, tag us in your pics, or just slide into our DMs. But maybe not at 3M, because that's our creepy time.
Creepy, creepy man.
[00:47:37] Speaker B: And with that conundrum crew, we're closing the seance, blowing out the candles and tucking the story back into the shadows.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: But hey, before we close the seance on this one, don't forget to follow, like and subscribe wherever you're tuning in. Leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. It helps more curious souls join in the Conundrum crew.
[00:47:59] Speaker B: And if you're watching this on YouTube, ring that notification bell so you never miss an episode filled with ghosts, legends, or possibly the return of Mary Roth herself.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Got a haunted hometown tale, possessed case, or something downright unexplainable? We want to hear it. Head to total conundrum.com and send your story to us.
[00:48:20] Speaker B: Or come find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tick Tock or X. We we love connecting with our listeners. But seriously, no haunted dolls in the mail.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: Maybe some?
[00:48:32] Speaker B: No, we're still trying to get Carl to stay in his box.
[00:48:36] Speaker A: I love Carl.
[00:48:37] Speaker B: Oh, you keep Carl okay.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: Until next time, keep questioning the unexplained.
[00:48:43] Speaker B: Keep on creeping on. We love you. Bye.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Thanks for hanging out with us here at Total Conundrum. Please make sure to check out our website and
[email protected] for news, upcoming events, merch bloopers, and additional hysteria. You never know what will pop up, so be sure to follow along. If you want to show your support for Total Conundrum and gain access to all of our bonus content, please visit our Patreon page. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. The links are available in our Show Notes. If you have any questions, comments, recommendations or stories to share, please please email us at. Contact total conundrum.com episodes are available on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. If you like the show, please rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts. We appreciate the love Keep on creeping on Sam.
