[00:00:31] Speaker A: If you dig the twisted, admired, the outlandish, and are enamored by the unusual, you're in the right place. True crime, the supernatural, the unexplained. Now you're speaking our language. If you agree, join us as we dive into the darker side. You know, because it's more fun over here. Welcome to Total Conundrum.
Warning. Some listeners may find the following content disturbing. Listener discretion is advised.
Hey, welcome back, Conundrum crew, to another thrilling episode of Total Conundrum. Your favorite duo of mystery mavens is here to tickle your curiosity with another deep dive into the unknown.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: That's right, folks. And today we're embarking on a journey that's not only mysterious, but incredibly important. We have the privilege of hosting a remarkable guest who's fighting for justice in the shadows.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Joining us is the incredible Sarah from voiceless behind bars. She's a tireless advocate for those wrongfully imprisoned, shining a light on the injustices they face and giving them a voice in the darkness.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Sarah's work is truly inspiring, and we're honored to have her here with us today. We'll be delving into the heartbreaking reality of innocent people incarcerated, discussing the challenges they endure and how we can support their fight for freedom.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: But before we dive in, folks, a quick reminder to all our conundrum crew out there. Don't forget to, like, follow and subscribe to Total conundrum on all your favorite podcast platforms. And keep an eye out because we'll be featuring trailers from our friends over at Dairyland. Frights and Afrocentric.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: That's right. So hit those buttons, ring those bells and join the adventure. Now let's give a warm welcome to Sarah and get this conversation started. We'll be back after these messages.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: Hello, my spooky friends. This is your host, John from Dairyland Frights, the paranormal podcast that covers everything spooky, creepy, and mysterious in the Midwest.
This is actually John.
I hope my spooky voice scared you. And in this podcast, we're going to have creepy guests and spooky tales and mysterious sightings of cryptids, UFOs, ghosts, and everything paranormal. So tune in if you dare to be scared.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Hey, everybody, we have a special guest today. We have Sarah di Armand. Did I say that right? You did great. I was worried about that from voiceless behind bars. And Sarah, can you tell us a little bit about what you advocate for and how we can find you?
[00:03:41] Speaker C: Hi, my name is Sarah Yarmond. My nonprofit is voiceless behind bars. You can find
[email protected]. And I also run my own podcast named after my nonprofit voiceless behind Bars, which is owned by prison audio. And you can find that on most streaming platforms. And I advocate mostly for the wrongfully convicted, but I also advocate against the inhumane treatment of prisoners, the inhumane prison conditions. I advocate against the death penalty, and I also speak out against the way the correction officers treat the prisoners. And I really want to see the prison system as it is completely abolished, rebuilt, and also talk about people who are overly sentenced. Like one of my friends, Sharon Edwards, was sentenced to 20 years in federal prison. Now he's doing 20 years in state prison for a minor crime. So really just the whole legal system, but the heart and soul. It's wrongful convictions.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Right. For instance, like the sex offenders that get just a few years and somebody will get a minor drug offense and they'll get 15 years.
[00:04:57] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah. The whole system just blows my mind completely. So I'm assuming with your accent, you must be from the south.
[00:05:07] Speaker C: Yes, I'm from Alabama.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: I love it. I don't know if you saw the little snippet video that Jeremy and I just did. We had John from dairyland frights on, and we did Deadwood, South Dakota, which is, like, where the wild west was really rampant and stuff. So we were doing our little pretend cowboy accent.
Didn't go very well, but it was fun trying.
I love the southern accent. Totally love it.
So I know in following your stuff and talking with you that you have a case in Minnesota.
[00:05:52] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:05:53] Speaker B: And that's. Is it Timothy McGregor?
[00:05:55] Speaker C: That's him. Timothy McGregor.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: Yep. Okay. And then I know there was one that you posted recently about somebody getting assaulted while they were in prison. And it was absolutely appalling because nobody.
They just stood around. He was on the ground. He was attacked, and they didn't do anything.
And his name is incorrect in the system as well. They changed his name.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Kevin Billingsley. Yes, I remember I posted the video of him being assaulted, and they changed his name to Kevin Rogers. And Kevin Billingsley is his legal name, but it no longer exists in the state of Ohio.
They changed it to Kevin Rogers. And he's under there under a name that does not belong to him. He was wrongfully convicted. And like you said, I got the video footage from the prison, posted it, and like you said, they were just standing there. He had a broken jaw.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: I could not believe that video. It was definitely correctional facility. Yeah, definitely. Go to her page and check out that it's. I was just tongue tied. I'm just speechless because I couldn't even believe what had.
But so we'll kind of get into some questions here, and then we'll go more into Timothy's case and stuff like that, since I feel it's a good one, since we're from Minnesota as well. So we'll probably be familiar with some of the locations and stuff that you talked about in the story.
It's not a story. I guess it's a real life.
Real life thing, but real life nightmare. Yeah, real life nightmare.
So what inspired you to become an advocate for the innocent individuals in prison?
[00:07:51] Speaker C: Well, 2020 was a big year for all of us. And what happened was, sitting at home, I was keeping my eyes open more and more about police brutality. And I will admit, seeing George Floyd, what happened to. I. I knew evil existed, knew monsters existed, that I, especially as a white person, had never encountered such evil in my life.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: Well, and being in Minnesota, having all of that happen here was just. Holy shit.
Yeah.
[00:08:26] Speaker C: And I was trying to make sense of what I saw for two days. And after two days, I thought, something enough. It's time to act. And so that's when I started posting more online about Black Lives Matter, police brutality, talking about, okay, this is who you need to contact when you see this, because I saw all of us working together.
We make changes. So a friend of mine tagged me in a video about it was that fall, upcoming wrongful execution of a man named purpose pain. Fortunately, he's still with us. But I knew wrongful convictions happened. Wrongful executions happened. I just didn't realize how much right, how often. One out of every nine wrong people who are executed are innocent.
Two people a day, at the least, are wrongfully convicted. And I didn't know that at the time.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: So, going down that rabbit hole, one out of nine are innocent, and two.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Yes, we just lost an innocent man. February 20 eigth on your post.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Yeah. That's crazy.
[00:09:37] Speaker C: So that's when I started going down the rabbit hole, and it was February 2021. I found out about Timothy Minnesota and my friend.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. I did not realize the stats were that scary.
So you kind of touched on this a little bit already. But do you want to give us some more information on Timothy's case and how it impacted you and motivated you to pursue this type of work?
[00:10:09] Speaker C: Absolutely.
It was, like I said, February 2021. My video about Sharon had gone viral, and Timothy son, Terrence, wonderful man, had reached out to me, and he, being the gentleman that he is, he said, excuse me, miss, would you mind looking into my father's case. Timothy McGruder, St. Paul, Minnesota. And he said he just wants to be heard. And I froze. And I just looked at that sentence, and I thought, how many people are in prison right now who are in a set and they're not being listened to? I just looked at that sentence, and I said to him, okay, I'll look into it. And I started reading into it, and I saw that right away that three men, Tyrone, Greg and Malik, had been wanted for ten years by the feds for cocaine trafficking. They had been arrested, and they first weren't saying anything. And then Jeff Paulson, who was the federal prosecutor at the time, this was 2001, said, okay, well, there was a horrible murder, very heartbreaking in 1996 of a four year old girl. Gang shot up a car at an AMco gas station.
It was in St. Paul, and they thought a rival gang was in there. It wasn't carpool children, full children. An innocent girl had her life taken, and the case went cold. And so Jeff Paulson, the fed, said, okay, if you can tell us who committed this crime, we will give you plea deals you will not serve life in. And I thought, hmm, plea deals. Okay, something's fishy here. And so that's when they started naming Timothy, his co defendants. I started looking more into it. Saw evidence was just hearsay.
There was no evidence at all. It was just relied on the testimony alone of Tyrone, Greg, and Malik. That was it. And I saw any witnesses they had were related to Tyrone and Greg, their brothers, and they couldn't even identify Timothy at the scene of the crime. So I relayed that information, what I could find to Terrence, and I said, am I correct? He said, yeah, you're correct. And I said, okay, well, let me take this. And as. Over the years as I'd gotten deeper into it, I found out this man was not only railroaded, this was very politically driven. Keith Ellison was his public defender. And Keith Ellison arrived 30 minutes late the first day of trial, which shouldn't have been allowed. But when he did, he missed the opportunity to challenge Jeff Paulson. When he admitted to the judge that he had arrested Timothy and the other two without federal jurisdiction, he never charged them with anything again. That's legal. Judge let it slide when he shouldn't have, because the only way to connect them to the crime was to connect them to the drug conspiracy. Wasn't able to. He referenced the drugs, but never charged them with a drug conspiracy. And so I called up Jeff Paul. Excuse me, Keith Ellison's office last year. And I made sure to be polite, toothy, and made sure that I was polite.
But I asked for an affidavit that he was 30 minutes late, therefore missing his opportunity to challenge Jeff Paulson. He said no. And his secretary said to me, well, he could have challenged him at any time. And I was shocked she admitted that to me.
I couldn't believe she admitted that to me.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: And Timothy had an alibi. He was with his cousin Kevin. Kevin should be on my podcast soon. But the night that horrible crime was committed, Kevin was by his side the entire night, he testified. And Jeff Paulson was known for going after gang members. Mr. Tough on crime. And he knew the jury would not question him if he called Kevin a gang member. Kevin was not a gang member. He was not affiliated with. I'm never affiliated with a gang. But he knew the jury would not question him. And Timothy's looking at Keith like, are you going to say something?
Keith said nothing. And so there went any credibility Kevin had. He was telling the truth. In fact, it kind of frustrated Jeff that he couldn't poke holes or anything. But Kevin just remained calm because he knew he's telling the truth.
But like I said, everything was shot after that, and they were all wrongfully convicted. So the other two men, like I said, didn't do it either.
So Timothy has been in federal prison for 23 years. He's in McCreary now. That's one of the worst federal prisons out there.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: Where is that one at?
[00:15:21] Speaker C: That's in pine knot, Kentucky.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: He's been transferred out of Minnesota.
[00:15:27] Speaker C: Yeah, they transferred all them.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: Okay. Wow. As I say, that one didn't sound familiar. I mean, the biggest ones that I know of in Minnesota are the Fairbolt prison and the St. Cloud prison, and the Fairbolt and St. Cloud didn't. Jeremy wasn't from the Katie Poyer story. Wasn't Donald.
[00:15:51] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: Wasn't he in both of them?
[00:15:55] Speaker A: I'm not sure.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: I can't remember. Now. All the stories start to blend together after a while. Unfortunately, there's just so much wrong in all of them. This reminds me a lot. I've heard a lot of podcasts on the west Memphis three and what those guys went through. They were young guys. The one was mentally challenged that they questioned, that basically got them all convicted, and the case still isn't solved.
But luckily, I think all three of them are out now. But they had to take.
What is that plea?
I can't think of what it's called now. Basically, you're still saying you're guilty, but you're getting out of prison.
[00:16:48] Speaker C: Was it a compassionate release?
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Not a compassionate release, but I'm familiar.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: With what you're talking about.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: I can't think of what it's called now. Oh, my gosh. It'll pop in my head at 02:00 in the morning.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: No clue over here.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: What is it? Well, I'll think of it, but, yeah, it's basically where you take a plea deal that you are still pleading that you are guilty, but you get out on. It's like a loophole, basically.
What are some common challenges faced by innocent individuals who have been wrongfully convicted?
[00:17:30] Speaker C: So, common ones are like, for one thing, when it comes to the witnesses, a lot of times either they are being coaxed into testifying by the police, the prosecutor, they make plea deals, or they just simply don't remember very well.
Another thing is that prosecutors will plant evidence or they'll withhold evidence that would have exonerated the person that they're trying to wrongfully convict.
Another thing, honestly, is race. An innocent black man is seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of murder than a guilty white man.
Another thing that they face is once they're wrongfully convicted in prison, disregards race, gender. Once they're in prison, it's extremely hard to get out. Even if you have all the evidence, the DNA evidence, it's extremely hard to get out. Usually you have to find a technicality in your case.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: Well, and to be able to get your appeals done and to get your case heard, know stuff like that, it's not an easy task. Jeremy was just doing, researching a case, and he was looking into the parole hearings and stuff like that. And sometimes those parole hearings, what did you say? They can take up to a couple of years, Jeremy, before they even get the parole hearings, which I had no idea. I thought they were just something that was scheduled, but even though you're scheduled for it, it could still take a few years to have it happen, which I wasn't aware of. I don't know a lot about the legal system. I'm pretty.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Yeah, me, too.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: Learning a lot doing this Alfred plea. That's what it's called. It just popped into my head, a squirrel.
The Alfred plea is what it's called. But no, I really have learned a lot in doing this podcast and listening to podcasts, and a lot of it just blows my mind. And in a lot of these cases, it's like sometimes you'll get. The cops were on it, and they did an amazing job. They couldn't have done it any better. And other times it's like, what the hell are you doing? Are you sitting there with your thumbs up your ass? Or.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: Pretty much.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: I don't get it.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: The day at the donut shop, I.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Could have solved the case better myself, not having any experience and just the way that sometimes it's just the accusations. And the other thing that I learned recently that I did not know is that witnesses that are of a different race, people have a hard time identifying outside of somebody outside of their race.
[00:20:32] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: And I never realized I was listening to something. And they were talking about the statistics of successfully identifying somebody that is not of your same race. And it was very low, which I thought was very interesting.
[00:20:48] Speaker C: Yeah. One of the witnesses in Timothy's case who was related to Toronto, Greg, described a black man with cornrows. 10th. He does not have cornrows. He's bald.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Here's a big oops.
[00:21:04] Speaker C: And she described someone just who looked completely different from him. And she was even asked, was this the person that you saw? And she said, I can't answer that.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: Well, at least she didn't say, give him a definite answer.
Gave him the benefit of the doubt, and not if you don't fit.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: You must acquit.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:21:27] Speaker C: All the witnesses have pointed to someone else on the. When they were given a photo lineup, the suspects, they all point to someone else, not Timothy.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: Wow, that just blows my mind.
And he has a solid alibi as well, right? Wasn't he at like a family dinner with multiple people or something?
[00:21:46] Speaker C: He was at his aunt's house. His cousin was by his side. Kevin, the entire.
Yeah, Kevin, like I said, is supposed to come my podcast soon. He and I have talked about it, and I asked Kevin, what was your reaction when Jeff Paulson called you a gang member? And he said he was surprised because he's like, I never was affiliated with a gang. And I said to him that Timothy had told me that the family made sure he never got caught up in, that. They were very protective of him. And I asked him, how surprised were you when Timothy was convicted? He said, very much so, because everyone knew he didn't do it. I mean, of course the prosecutor knew. They all knew he didn't do it. So he said, that was the last thing I thought was going to happen.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Wow, that just blows my mind.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: I think the thing that blows my mind is that basically everybody knows that he's innocent, but yet he'd still be sitting in prison for years after the fact.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: Well, it took like, the west Memphis three. I think it took almost 20 years for them to get out as well.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Why? What takes so long?
[00:22:55] Speaker B: Just going through, improving everything, and a lot of times they didn't. When did the innocence project come into play? That's more of a recent thing, isn't it?
[00:23:08] Speaker C: This is project I'm trying to think. I think it may have been in the late 80s that came about.
Okay, this is project I'm kind of about. Because, yes, they have done some good things, but they also will take a lot of cases and ghost people.
They did that to Kevin.
And a lot of times they'll say, with a case, well, we need DNA proof. And a lot of cases don't have DNA proof at all.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: Timothy doesn't have any. Well, I suppose because it was. The little girl was shot from afar, right? Unfortunately. But, yeah, with the west Memphis three, there was no. They did not find any of their DNA. They found DNA on the little boys that were murdered, but it was not any of the three that were convicted either. And again, that was a southern town as well, in Memphis, Tennessee.
And sometimes you get into some. I know that sometimes the southern politics, like, look at the what's his face that you just did a story on recently. Jeremy, North Carolina. Boy, my mind is shot today.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: I've seen southern politics. So name one.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: K I v. Not North Carolina. South Carolina.
The lawyer.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: Oh, Murda.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Yes, Murda. Look at how that family completely took over everything in that town. Boy, I definitely have Saturday brain today. I apologize.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think innocent.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: No, but look at everything that they got away with for so long.
Yeah, it blows my mind sometimes.
So let's see. Next question.
How do you identify and prioritize cases of potential wrongful convictions?
[00:25:19] Speaker C: That's a good question.
So whenever someone comes to me about a case, I do hear them out.
I do ask a lot of questions, like, okay, so why do you think you were targeted?
And I will ask, okay, so why did this person testify against you? And I will also ask, okay, can I see any transcripts? Do you have other people who can vouch for you? And anyone who is innocent and didn't do it will say yes to anything. Who could say to me? Yeah, whatever you need, I can send to you. I can have someone to vouch for me.
Most of the time, they can answer the question, this is why this person turns against me. There are occasions where they truly don't know. Like Gary Drinkard, survivor of Alabama's death row, who was innocent on here, truly does not know why his pacifist returned against him. But most of the time they do know. But if it's a bunch of, I don't know. It's one thing to have like one or two, that's one thing, but it's another thing. Like, I don't know about any transcripts. I don't have anyone who could vouch for me.
Just start asking questions like, well, what was about the police officer's motive behind targeting you at all?
Because sometimes not condoning what the police were doing, but sometimes if someone has a few run ins, they're like, oh, that's an easy target. Again, not condoning them, but it's just a bunch of, I don't know. I don't know. Or if they're trying to subject like, okay, I need to look up your information. What city did this take place in? What prison are you in?
Either they start to get standoffish or their parents will not answer. Or I once had a woman going a bunch of, well, I'm not sure. And I'm like, okay, I'm not a magician here.
So that's when I weed out people. I guess you could say it doesn't happen all the time, but on occasion it does.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: How hard is it to get the paperwork and stuff that you need from the different areas, the courts, the prisons?
[00:27:53] Speaker C: A lot of paperwork is readily available online.
Like transcripts, stuff like that. That's public information.
Like Timothy's transcripts from his court case, that's public information that's on my nonprofit's website.
So a lot of that I can look up, just have an account with the government forgetting the name of it. But with federal courts, just have an account with them. You can upload that.
But there are, I think, a couple of things. Like if someone wrote an affidavit, then you would need someone that I'm advocating for. Like, okay, can you be a copy of that? Send that to me. Right, but transcripts, I can look that up online. But as far as when it comes to, like I said, when it came to Timothy, people who testify for them, they were ready to talk to me. And that's usually the case. People are ready to talk to me.
And anything that's not already available online, like the government does normally send to the inmate. So normally they can make a copy and send it to me.
[00:29:20] Speaker B: So in like recent case, more recent cases, now they have police, all have body cam footage and stuff like that. Is that something that's easy to get copies of? Because I know a lot of times, even watching news stories, they'll be like, well, we finally got the body cam footage.
[00:29:38] Speaker C: That's been very difficult. They're not very kind about.
Like, even though Timothy's case was a while ago, there is still some camera footage from that time, and they aren't.
And it has to do with a gang meeting when planning out that shootout that he was not part of. But it would be nice to get that video footage, but police won't release it.
Like I said, be nice to get it, but it's not the first time run into trouble with them where I'm asking them for body cam footage, some surveillance footage.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm sure you got to get through those loopholes. And it's probably have to know the right people. Yeah, exactly. Know the right people or have the right credentials, which I know even some lawyers have trouble with getting what they.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: Maybe you can recruit. Anonymous.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: There you go.
We did a case that they were involved in, and they blew my mind with it.
I'd never heard of them before that case, and I'd heard of it, but I wasn't really familiar with what they did. And after the case that I covered, it blew my mind on what they were able to do, the control that they had.
So, yeah, maybe just start tagging them, hashtag anonymous.
Tell them total conundrum, Sanjay.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: I'm sure they got an email address out there somewhere.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Somewhere.
Can you walk us through the process of advocating for someone who claims to be innocent after being convicted?
[00:31:30] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely.
After I talk to them, I have to talk to them several times. And if I can talk to any family members after all that, I will start making a couple of videos. I'll ask you, do you have a petition? Sometimes I'll make a petition.
That's a good way to get people's attention, sign this petition, because it just takes a moment of their time.
Like I said, is a good way to get people on board making a video. I try not to make it too long because I don't want to again lose people's attention.
[00:32:10] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:11] Speaker C: And just in the beginning, hit the high notes. And as I get deeper into it, start getting deeper into the story. And now that I've had my podcast for nearly two years, I'm like, okay, we need to get you on the podcast soon. So people hear from your mouth about case, because who better to explain the case than you?
And that makes a pretty significant impact as well, including if I can get their family members on there, that also makes a pretty big, um. And sometimes even after I had one man, Dr. Chris Brown, whose father, Gary Brown, was executed. And I had him on my podcast just so people can hear about, look, this death penalty has a lot of consequences, even years.
It's. But I realized with Timothy, even before my podcast, I had him a video record of him and I talking videos, my Instagram, because I'm like, people need to hear from.
I'm like, no one can explain this better than you. So that's one of the most important things in my advocacy is people hearing from the wrongfully convicted person themselves, their family members. And sometimes I go to rallies. I went to a rally yesterday in Atlanta and advocated for Timothy. It's on my social media and going to be hitting up some more rallies soon.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Well, that's good. Well, and social media is a huge conduit, too, of getting the word out there because I don't remember how we ended up following each other on Instagram, but a bunch of the people in the group that I associate with, like we do trailer trades and we've done collabs and stuff together. But when you posted that video of Kevin, one of the podcasts that we follow and work with pretty closely, the suspended sentence is now going to be interviewed. I don't know if they've done it yet or not or have posted it yet or not, but they are going to be interviewing Kevin from.
I mean, it definitely helps social media definitely helps get the word out there and spreads it. It's kind of crazy. It's like wildfire in a way. And so I'm really glad that the cases that you are talking about and the ones that you're fighting for and advocating for are getting the attention that they need to be getting. And it's hard when you got, because even if they are part of the innocent project or what you're going through, you still have the people, the non believers that will give you the brunt of how do you know? And we'll give you all the negative feedback and stuff. So being positive all the time has got to be very hard. But you do a very good job of it. And your videos, you make them entertaining, which is wonderful. You do a wonderful job of what you're doing.
Yeah, you do. You have a lot of fun with it. I mean, even if it's something as trying to think of one of your recent ones, but you won't even say anything. You just have words above you that you point to and then words below and then you just simple, but it gets the point across.
[00:35:57] Speaker C: I do like to use sound effects music because it helps get people's attention.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Definitely that's something we're still learning, is trying to get the different.
What's going to attract people's attention?
What are people going to want to share? What's going to attract somebody to listen to an episode?
We're still pretty new to it.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: We got pretty lights now.
[00:36:22] Speaker C: We do.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: We have pretty lights in our background now we have video.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: We're getting up there.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: So you get to see all of our dumb expressions.
But, yeah, the whole social media thing will. And I wasn't even on Instagram, or we weren't even on Instagram probably for the first four months of our podcast, because my kids used know I'd post things, I'd share it from Facebook or whatever, like our episodes and whatnot. And we were struggling to get followers on Facebook. And I'm like, what is going on? And then I got introduced to how Instagram is so great for podcasting. And just the probably four or five months that we've been out there, we're already at almost. I think we're just shy, like, too shy of a thousand.
[00:37:20] Speaker C: That's great.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And I love it. And Twitter, and Jeremy's been handling that, getting that up there. And I started doing a TikTok. I don't understand TikTok, but I've been posting videos that we do on Insta and stuff. But we got to get better at doing our own little fun, little reels. But life is so busy, it gets hard.
So what support and resources do you provide to individuals who have been wrongfully convicted?
[00:37:57] Speaker C: So what I do for them is I say, okay, well, first off, I tell them, I'm going to get your information out there. I'm going to get people.
I need to make the public aware. I need to get them to care. It takes a village. And I also encourage the public to vote. I'm like, we need to get the right people in office, or else we're not going to get any work done, achieved. And every vote does matter. Absolutely.
I tell them, I got to get your name out there. I need to get your voice out there. And as we start working together, I start reaching out. Sometimes I reach out to different podcasts. Like, Timothy himself has done some interviews, and so if some other people I've advocated for and if they're able to do an interview, absolutely, I want them to be heard, too. And I also try to see if anyone can either provide them assistance, like with Timothy. He's got some paralegals with this case.
I'll see if any volunteers, like from a university who are staying law can help out. And I will also talk to different websites, get the word out about their case, so I can offer them, first and foremost, word of mouth, seeing if anybody can get interested in the case. Hopefully pick it up, and also hopefully get donations to my site, which will help them in return.
[00:39:39] Speaker B: Right.
You said, like, Timothy has done interviews and stuff. Are they allowed, like, an undetermined time on the phone? As long I'm assuming whomever's interviewing him.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Will be back after these messages.
[00:39:55] Speaker D: Are you tired of seeing the world through a whitewashed or eurocentric lens? Do you want to learn how to view the world from a more black point of view? Then check out Afrocentric, the podcast that explores the importance of an afrocentric gaze while navigating white spaces. Hosted by me, Morgan Gray, each episode features thought provoking conversations on black culture, black perspectives, as well as the black experience. Because here we understand that black lives are not a monolithic experience, and there is more than one way to view it. Our goal is always to advocate, discuss, and inform black Americans about the importance of evolving past their perspectives through an afrocentric lens. Subscribe to Afrocentric today on your favorite podcast platform and join the conversation on social media using hashtag Afrocentric. I'll talk to you guys soon. Bye bye.
[00:40:45] Speaker B: Is paying the it? Do they still do that? Collect call charges or whatever?
[00:40:50] Speaker C: Timothy pays for the minutes.
The inmate pays for the minutes, but they have only so many minutes at a time.
[00:41:00] Speaker B: When I interviewed, they're like, okay, I.
[00:41:03] Speaker C: Got to call you back.
[00:41:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I wondered how that worked, because I wasn't sure if they had to do it in different sessions or if they could do it consecutively.
And I think they have. Jeremy was just saying that. Didn't you find out that there was somebody that was in prison that has a.
[00:41:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that text from the Manston family.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: Oh, that's right.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Yeah, he's got his own podcast. It's like, love learning or something. Podcast.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: Well, and then we did a case on. That was out of South Africa, and the guys that brutally raped and murdered this woman had access to Facebook and porn sites and all sorts of stuff. And I was like, what? And now these guys are released. They should have never. They left this woman for dead. And by an act of a miracle, her intestines were outside of her body. Her neck was slashed so much that the muscles were slashed so she couldn't even use the muscles to hold her head up. And she made it her way to the road and was found by somebody who was going to school to be a veterinarian. Technician.
But they released these guys this year. I'm like, what the hell? And then you got innocent people that are in prison.
[00:42:50] Speaker C: There's one man I'm advocating for, Jesse Dreyfus, good friend of mine, who submitted the evidence that proves that he didn't do it.
He's got the medical records, everything proves he didn't do it. He's still having trouble getting released.
[00:43:03] Speaker B: Even when they do overturn the convictions, it can still be years.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: That's the part I don't understand.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: It's weird.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Even when they finally determine that they are innocent or they do the Alford plea or whatever, it can still take them years to get out.
[00:43:23] Speaker A: They should get out that day with a big fat check.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: Right? Well, a lot of them don't get checks either.
[00:43:29] Speaker C: It's true.
[00:43:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Blows my mind. Absolutely blows my mind. In your experience, what role does public awareness and activism play in advocating for the justice reform and exoneration?
[00:43:45] Speaker C: It means everything. I feel like without the public, I would not be here. I feel like I would not have gotten this far with these cases. I feel like when it comes to Jesse Dreyfus. Timothy McGruder. When it comes to Andy McCauley Jr. Just so many ones. Kevin Billingsley. There's just so many to name. Matthew Baker is facing trial for the death penalty crime he did not commit. But it's gotten a lot of attention that he did not commit this crime, which is important because the judge, the district attorney in that case are sweating bullets because people are paying attention to this case, and that's everything. Because without the public, there would be no progress. They would be able to just continue to sweep all this under the rug like nothing ever happened, and they would be forgotten. So the public gets everything.
[00:44:45] Speaker B: I think the other thing that they should put into play, too, is the judges that hear the initial case should not be the ones that do the appeal, because a lot of times they turn down the appeal because they feel that they judged it properly.
[00:45:02] Speaker C: Right.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: I think it needs a second set of eyes or a third set of eyes.
What are some systematic issues within the criminal justice system that contribute to wrongful convictions?
[00:45:18] Speaker C: Race is definitely a factor in the 13th amendment. It says slavery is still legalized in the prison system. So it was never abolished. It was just redesigned.
So we got to get rid of that, what's called 13th amendment loophole. We've got to get rid of that.
When it comes to the BIPOC community in general, they're targeted. And when you're poor, period, you are targeted unless you're a member of the elite, you are targeted because there's a lot of poor white people who are wrongfully convicted.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:45:54] Speaker C: When it comes to race and class.
Absolutely.
Those are definite factors. But like I said, if you're a poor black man, oh, my gosh. Absolutely. That's the biggest factor right there.
But like I said, if you're not a member of the elite, you hear about people like Jeffrey Epstein, rich people like Jared Fogel, like getting away with crimes, just a slap on the wrist because they're rich.
And I hear about this many times with other rich people where they do these horrible crimes that should put them under the prison. But no, it doesn't happen.
And you've got people who are poor, people from the BIPOC community who can't afford a good lawyer, public defender. And a public defender either works for the state or the federal government. They're not going to go against their boss. They're not going to say my boss is wrong.
Sometimes public defenders are good, but most of the time it's not going to happen. Right.
I've got people in prison who are not only wrongfully convicted, who are overly sentenced, who are there for a very minor like a nonviolent drug crime.
People are mentally ill who should be in hospital. I'm not saying that prison doesn't have people who aren't guilty like there are people in prison who should be there. Absolutely saying otherwise. I'm just saying when it comes to my tax dollars, I want to house people who deserve to be in there.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:47:46] Speaker C: And those are the leading factors right there.
[00:47:49] Speaker B: Definitely. How do you collaborate with legal experts, investigators and other professionals to support your advocacy efforts?
[00:48:01] Speaker C: Working with other advocacy groups?
That's not too hard because we're in it for the same goal. Sometimes you can get it a little clickish, but not always. Like I said, we're in this together. When it comes to legal experts, when it comes to law students, that's a bit easier. But when it comes to anyone who's charging, that's a bit harder. I can get their opinion, but usually it's hard to get someone to do it for free. Sometimes they'll do an interview like I got a few who are doing an interview for Jesse Dreyfus who are legal experts.
They do want to give their two cent when it comes to this case because they worked with him when it came to getting the new evidence submitted.
But other than that, when it comes to working with legal experts, it's a bit hard to, without paying them but usually I can at least get an opinion. I can at least go like, okay, well, here's my advice. So they can at least do that much, but I get more luck with law students, law professors.
[00:49:14] Speaker B: Well, and that's good.
But I remember there was a cold case that was solved by a bunch of law students that the teacher. Yeah, the teacher is like, all right, let's do that. Let's focus on this and work on this and see what we can mean. Now even podcasts are solving cold have. We'll be interviewing a lady probably this spring. She's in Florida right now and quite busy as a.
Um, so our schedules, like, she's available during the day and I'm not. So when she gets back to Minnesota, we're going to have her on. And she's got a cold case of somebody that was murdered in Minnesota, so she's going to tell the story on that. And cold cases, they depress me, but it's like, I just want them all solved. And I think with the 23 andme, that kind of stuff is going to be huge for even the wrongful convicted and cold cases and stuff like that, because they're doing all of the genealogy stuff now and going down.
I'm sure that bullet has DNA on it, and I'm sure it has just like any bullet, it has its own fingerprint. So at some point, that gun could come back into play and could match another bullet, and it could be something like that. That solves it as well.
[00:50:48] Speaker C: We want whoever did it in prison. We want justice for it, right?
[00:50:52] Speaker B: Because what has that other person been doing all this time? They're probably not a pillar of the community.
Some of that just blows my mind. Totally blows my mind.
What advice would you give to someone who wants to get involved for advocating for innocent individuals in prison?
[00:51:15] Speaker C: So I would suggest, first of all, start with cases that are more well known, like, let's say, Billy Allen, Richard Glossop. I would say get involved in theirs, because spreading the word about their cases, the more people on their cases, the better they already got. Like I said, it's pretty viral. So just hop in. We need more people involved, and that'll get you big toe dipped in. And as you keep talking about their cases, you keep making more videos, sharing their.
Like, in Instagram, for instance, you'll see more clemency accounts, get recommended to you, and that way you can start researching these cases. Like when Sharon's was recommended to me, I googled his name, and I thought, why aren't there more articles about him? This is messed up. And I emailed his account. I'm like, what can I do to help? So when it comes to smaller cases, google their name, see if anything comes up. Ask them, what can I do for your case?
Because as you deviate from the bigger accounts to the smaller names, like the smaller people absolutely need you. Like, hate to say smaller people, but cases that are unknown need your help. Absolutely, because absolutely get involved with the big cases. But people who are unknown, they absolutely need your help.
I know there's so many people. I know we can't help everyone, but we can't go and ignore someone because, oh, not enough people are involved. All it takes is you getting involved, you making enough noise, and I promise you, more people will get involved.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: People will start listening.
So is there anything that we have not covered that you would like to cover?
[00:53:20] Speaker C: The only other thing I'd like to say is, please, I mentioned this briefly, but vote because like I said briefly, and I just want to reiterate it, your vote does matter. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Every vote absolutely counts. And research every candidate. Don't vote straight, red, blue, whatever. Research every candidate carefully and look into their background, look into their morals, their principles, and say, okay, will this candidate represent me, my area and do that with every candidate down the ballot. We've got primaries coming up, so please do your research. And I'm with rock the vote. So my beacons page of my bio you can go through, I have links to where you can register to vote. You could check your registration status in case you moved, something like that. But I'm not telling you who to vote for. I'm telling you you need to vote. Because if we don't get the right people in office, the right judges, prosecutors, people like that, we're not going to make any progress.
[00:54:30] Speaker B: And how many people just when they're going through the ballots, and I know I'm guilty of it, too. You get to those things at the end, the judges and the stuff that you know nothing about.
I don't know.
[00:54:46] Speaker C: I've done that, too. Yeah.
[00:54:47] Speaker B: It's like, okay, which I should probably just leave them blank because I don't know. I don't even know if you can leave them blank online.
[00:55:00] Speaker A: And what if you don't like anybody that's running?
[00:55:05] Speaker C: Fortunately, there's staple ballots online, so you can research ahead of time. That's what I'm doing right now in Alabama.
But yeah, right there. If you don't like anyone that is like, it would be probably best to leave it blank. I understand that right there.
[00:55:21] Speaker A: Put.
[00:55:23] Speaker B: Kanye west.
[00:55:26] Speaker A: Vote for him this year.
[00:55:31] Speaker B: I heard that he's supposedly not himself anymore. He's supposedly a couple of inches taller and different color.
The whole conspiracy theory. We've had a couple of conspiracy theorists podcasts recently been pretty funny. I never really got into the whole conspiracy theory things, but some things are like, what the heck?
[00:55:56] Speaker A: Makes you kind of wonder.
[00:55:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. Jeremy just did an episode on the Flat Earth and he created his own flat earth. And it was funny.
[00:56:07] Speaker A: I'd live there.
[00:56:10] Speaker B: As long as I could control the temperature.
[00:56:14] Speaker A: 80 all the time.
[00:56:16] Speaker B: We can't complain. We have had the most mild winter for Minnesota that I can ever remember. We've only had snow, what, three times? And none of it has stuck.
[00:56:31] Speaker A: Our ICE is already out.
[00:56:33] Speaker B: Yeah, our lakes are opening up already, which never happens this early.
[00:56:38] Speaker A: Not this early.
[00:56:39] Speaker B: And today was like 60 something, I think. And that doesn't happen. Well, I guess it's march now, but normally January, we're like in the negative twenty s.
And that's not wind chill, that's air temp. And we were like thirty s, forty s, fifty s all through January and February. I'm like.
[00:56:59] Speaker A: And she's probably like, I've never even seen snow.
[00:57:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I have a few times. Oh, man.
[00:57:07] Speaker A: Horrible, right?
[00:57:09] Speaker C: Big snowstorms a few times.
[00:57:13] Speaker A: It snows down there. Everything shuts down. It's like we don't go to work, we don't go to school, nothing.
[00:57:20] Speaker B: We drive through a foot of snow. But usually the first couple of snowstorms, people forget. They forget how to drive. And it's like, just get off the road.
But yours turns more into ICE than ours does initially, too. And we've got the crews to clear the roads and stuff, so, not that they ever do, but I don't think they've cleared the roads once this year since in any of the snows that we've had, you haven't had to.
They should still be out there plowing.
Well, anyway, why don't you go ahead and let us know where we can find you again? Or where everybody can find you.
[00:58:04] Speaker C: You can find my website, voicelessbahindbars.org. There's my podcast, voiceless behind bars, that is owned by prison audio available on most streaming services.
You can also find me on TikTok and Instagram under the username it's Sarah only. All one word. I t s s a r a h o n l y. So it's Sarah only. I'm also on threads. And yeah, follow me on there and I'll constantly keep you updated about cases. And also, voiceless behind bars has their own official Facebook page now, so follow us on there and like I said, we'll keep you updated. And all donations, like I said, are tax deductible. And we have a new episode about every week on my podcast.
[00:58:54] Speaker B: I love if any if like Timothy or any of those guys are ever interested, we'd love to have them on the show. We'd love to hear their story, love to hear how things are going, what still needs to be done.
Let them have a voice.
[00:59:14] Speaker C: Absolutely. Thank you.
[00:59:15] Speaker B: Definitely. Well, thanks so much for coming on. We greatly appreciate it.
[00:59:20] Speaker C: Thanks for having me on.
[00:59:21] Speaker B: Yeah, and then maybe in the future we'll have you back on to give us some updates. I love that cases are going and stuff. Well, thank you so much for taking your time on a busy weekend and spending an hour with us. We appreciate it so much.
[00:59:39] Speaker A: Have a great day.
[00:59:41] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:59:42] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:59:43] Speaker B: And that wraps up another episode of Total Conundrum. We want to extend a huge thank you to our incredible guest, Sarah from voiceless behind bars for sharing her insight and shedding light on such an important topic.
[00:59:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. Sarah's work is truly commendable and we appreciate the passion and dedication she brings to advocating for those who need it most. Keep fighting the good fight.
[01:00:08] Speaker B: And to all those listeners out there, don't forget to continue supporting the cause. Like follow and subscribe and help us spread awareness about the injustices faced by innocent people incarcerated.
[01:00:21] Speaker A: That's right. And remember, folks, we're all in this together. Let's keep striving for justice and making our voices heard. Until next time, stay curious, stay compassionate, and keep seeking the truth.
[01:00:34] Speaker B: Keep on creeping on. We love you.
[01:00:36] Speaker A: Love you. Bye bye.
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